may be true may be true. and then there was this reaction in 2006, that's when trump took contestants from the apprentice to the playboy mansion. >> and he spotted a woman in a bunny suit, come on over wow so hugh hefner clearly, somebody who thought enough of trump over the years he used with playboy for years and, you know amoroso was saying, gosh, they had that the opening for an apprentice at the playboy mansion, she was just just sharing. i mean, they shot an episode of the apprentice at the playboy mansion back in 2006. and hugh hefner was a guest on that particular episode. so yes, but clearly there was a change of heart because just before hefner's hefner's death hefner's son said that his father had a change apart, basically saying that after that 1990 cover story came out and playboy magazine years later, he said, they just really felt as though it was an embarrassment wow, that's pretty amazing to think

about that. >> all right, jason, thanks. >> thank you very much. thanks to all of you, anderson good evening. welcome to our continuing special coverage. >> the trump's new york hush money trial date ten saw prosecutors, but for more alleged gag order violations before the judge. >> and the defense paint paint expected witnesses, michael cohen and current witness, keith davidson, is the true culprits in this case, not trump. davidson has represented stormy daniels and karen mcdougal and secure deals for their silence about alleged affairs with trump and the crucial months before the 2016 election. but any effort to make them the villains and donald trump, the victims countered by prosecutors who played the phone conversation hello, cohen secretly recorded and cnn exclusively obtained featuring donald trump taking an active role in the karen mcdougal deal need to open up a company for the transfer of wallet that info regarding my friend david so i'm going to

do that right away. >> i'd actually come up to me and i've spoken to allen weisselberg about how to set the whole thing up with funding yes. >> and it's all the stuff all the stuff because here you never know when that company know where he's going to be getting. >> correct. >> so i'm i'm all over that. and i spoke to alan about it when it comes time for the financing, which will be won't to pay yourself getting old. i got no chance forensic analysts from the da's office also took the stand today, testifying to the chain of custody of that recording that you just heard. now, this was necessary because unlike in most trials the defense is refusing to stipulate that certain evidence entered into the record is true as to this morning's contempt hearing, prosecutors asked judge juan merchan to sanction the former president for a second time this week, for an additional four violations they say of his gag order after court today, he mentioned those restrictions and cited them

inaccurately to make this false claim. >> well, i'm not allowed to test if i am under a gag, i can't even testified now we're going to be appealing the games. >> but i'm not allowed to testify because this judge, he was totally conflicted. as be under an unconstitutional gag order. nobody's ever had that before. there's never been any abuse like this before. this conflicted, judge, you to get added this case, you shouldn't be he should not be having this games. he gives us nothing. it's such a rigged court so i'm not allowed to testify because of it unconstitutional gag order were appealing the gag order and let's see what happens that plain and simple in legal terms is nonsense. >> he has every right to testify in his defense. he has said that he would then last week he waffled saying he would testify, quote, if it's necessary now, it seems to be laying the groundwork for backing out entirely. as always, plenty to talk about

back with us as new york defense attorney arthur my dala, former federal prosecutor, bestselling author geoffrey tube and newsnight anchor abby phillip sources, kaitlan collins, cnn senior legal analyst, elie honig, and the new york times, maggie haberman, who was in court today, maggie, what was in court today? >> it's surreal every day, but i would say that the strangest moment came toward the end of the day and it was a rough day of testimony. keith davidson, the former lawyer for stormy he daniel's testified for a long time and trump's lawyers actually did get some dings into him on cross-examination. it got very tense. he got very flustered. he ended up sounding pretty weaselly as he was giving answers, but prosecutors played these exchanges between the cohen secretly taped. one was with keith davidson and then the other was michael cohen and trump but you're just played? that tape is basically what jurors we're left with as the most dramatic testimony for the day. there was some other not particularly interesting testimony at the very end, as you say, from a custodian of records basically saying that he had checked out cohen's phone and that it was all forensically true that this material came from it, but we

still don't really we know what the jury thinks, and i think that's really important to bear in mind because you describe the cohen trump recording is a doozy. >> well, i mean, look, we've heard this tape for which again is a legal term, so right. >> thank you for clarifying for me. it's been six years, almost to the day that we know about this tape. and so it's obviously not new to us us, but i think when you are hearing it a as a juror and be in the context of that courtroom. it just sounded very different, particularly at a time when trump's lawyers were arguing that this was essentially old, just keith davidson and michael cohen. they didn't make this argument explicitly, but they were leaning into the idea that these two are just freelancing and the davidson was essentially extorting trump so that that didn't get dispelled from that tape. but the idea that trump didn't know what have it's also the first time that the jury has heard from trump. that's because we see him talking going into the gorp coming out of the court saying things that are true is you just show there even though todd blanche his attorneys shook his head. yes. when i did, this not allowed to

testify is just not true. >> and trump looked to him for affirmation and he shook his head, yes. but in the in the courtroom, trump is very quiet. he mullis first, his attorneys, something that they were annoyed about. it sounded like today when it's reported, how often they're speaking. but you can't hear what he's saying. and for the most part, he has his eyes closed a lot during the prosecution asking questions of the witnesses. he was watching as keith davidson was being cross-examined today. but this is really the first time the jury has actually heard trump's voice, which i think is what makes that tape so remarkable. >> so many elements of that tape. to analyze. and if you're the juror and you're going home for the night and you're replaying it in your mind, maybe some of them have heard it before. maggie's point? it's been out there for awhile but for just the fact that it exists, i think is incredibly notable. michael cones tone in the call is also incredibly notable. trump then kind of correcting him about the means of funding this thing that

strikes out to you immediately that he wants it to be in cash, not not financed, quote, unquote. there's so many elements of it that just from a human perspective, not a legal perspective that replays in my mind. i imagine agenda jurors would be thinking about all of those aspects of it as they're trying to analyze that takes you from a lawyer. >> but what i think today, we saw almost for the first time is there is a coherent theory of the defense in this case, you may not buy it and the jury may not buy it but the theory here is that michael cohen and keith davidson cooked up a profit-making scheme to get money out of donald trump on the eve of the election and by the way, michael cohen made over $400,000 out of this scheme which you got later in 2017 and that's the defense here. it's not crazy. and it may yet be refuted. did by the prosecution, but at least it is a theory of why donald trump is

my job what i'm just trying to be in your role here. >> let's i'm trying to be fair so since you did my job for me, ems and the part that i'm still struggling with is that an individual who was the president of the united states, who wants to be the president of the united states said something as really so foolish that i can testify because of his gag order as a citizen, i'll take my hat off as the defense attorney has a citizen that that's scary actually, i mean, you learn that it's like sixth or seventh grade, right? you have constitutional right to defend yourself. you learned about miranda rights, anything you say can be held against you. and look, i feel my heart goes out to todd blanche. i don't know. you do, but you know, you're in that position and trump is such an overpowering presence and he says something ridiculous like that. and your instinct is to protect him but you want to correct him and that's a disaster i mean, he didn't

nicholas statement, but it doesn't impact doesn't in fact about this tape for a minute because that to me is maybe the single most important piece of evidence in this case. >> this is the tape michael cohen made secretly of donald trump when michael cohen was the lawyer dominant was the client and in 2016, i promise you a lot about michael cohen's confidence in his client inherited his voice. so that's the first place i was going to start and i have scrutinized this tape. >> i have listened to. i have a piece coming out on it tomorrow. i've listened to every word of it. i hate this tape from a prosecutors point of view. first of all, the circumstances, how shady is that from michael cohen to secretly arthur aidala, you ever secretly recorded one of your clients? >> think about it twice universe, right? >> but but it's on my gold color, right? and it shows how she so that's point number one. point number two, the tape itself. it's good for prosecutors in that it shows for sure donald trump knew about the payments to karen mcdougal, knew it was $150,000 and was okay with it but that's not the crime. i keep saying it. the crime is in the accounting of it, the structuring of it. and when it gets to that, trump is fairly

ignorant of that. and cohen says to him, and i quote, no, no, no, no, no. >> i got it. and later he says, leave the stuff, lead the nuances, the details to allen weisselberg and me, and that's the defense right there down trump do they're paying hush money? hush money is not a crime. the structuring of it that was michael cohen and alloway is berg, they kept trump out and that's what we know from the tape. >> i would make the argument that we don't know what cohen is going to testify, to. >> we do know that cohen versus trump would be cohen versus the defense will be a he said he said and then the jury is going to have to decide which one, then they believed we have seen the prosecutors already extracting testimony from various witnesses that is not favorable to michael cohen because what they're clearly trying to do is take the air out of a big reveal when the defense cross examines cohen, but i don't know that all we know is on this tape there. all we can definitively definitively know is on that tape, but i don't know what else is going to be said. and i do think that the documentation in this case look, i think we have not heard a whole lot about with the actual crime is we have heard a lot about a conspiracy. we have not heard a whole lot about what the actual

crime that they have charged him with. and i think that you will hear the defense talk about that, but i do think that the documentation in the case and that evidence is pretty significant. it's not just relying on testimony. yeah. >> i will set the trump team those really good about how their cross-examination of keith davidson went today, especially where he was talking about michael cohen and how michael cohen called keith davidson kind of using him as a therapist to lament the fact that trump was not going to bring him into the administration. and keith davidson testified that cohen seemed suicidal and that point because of everything that was happening. >> but we're they felt that it was really the most effective was going after davidson. we've got incredibly contentious for the first time that we've really seen it be that high of a temper, i think inside the courtroom, as they were drilling down on him, questioning him about whether or not he was extorting trump likening the other people that he has worked with when it comes to whole cogen, lindsay lohan, charlie sheen, and kinda i'm to flustered keith davidson, which it seemed to be somewhat successful. i don't know how it run. the court read

in the core, it was it was it was tough sledding. i mean, it was really hard watching it just in just two days ago, two days ago, he was polished and he got almost timid. one thing that was very striking come to me and my colleagues watching this is that when david pecker was walking, who is the former and my head was walking through the details of his engagement with michael cohen. and really this business of sleaze that he was in charge of. >> he didn't seem ashamed at all. >> he was almost carefree about the whole thing. keith davidson seemed really embarrassed just as he was getting pushed on the kinds of deals that he was seeking over and over and over again in terms of pushing celebrities for i have this client who claims they had an affair with you or this that and the other and in that way, pecker is actually much more like trump, where there is just this sort of, i'm not going to be shamed out of the ring. davidson came off angry, sheepish uncertain hostile at certain points. any he got his backup a few times and seem to find his footing, but it wasn't it was not a great outing for him. there's a

reason and emil bove eight has been very strong in these cross-examinations. so he, and he's one of the differences. maybe one of the reasons and the lawyers he had could talk to that the difference between pecker, khuza'a businessman, he's in this just to make money he doesn't care as lawyers, we have like these ethical obligations. we'll take it old west, they're supposed to be a moral high ground you're not supposed to be extorting people. you're not supposed to be accused of extorting people as a lawyer, you're not supposed to be investing gated for extorting people as a lawyer and all of those things happen to him. so i can see him being much more defensive, been pecker's yeah, did this and i made the company millions though. >> one thing i think we learned today was why david pecker was put first by the prosecution because the argument in the prosecution is look pecker and trump in-person, not some deputy, but tracker and trump made this agreement to protect him before the election all the rest of this is the execution of that. and sure. these people

are the defenses keith davidson is terrible. michael cohen is terrible, but the press in the process confusion is going to ask at the end of the case, is who benefited from all this? who is who is the person who is above it all of the fine details, but who set this process in motion? the argument that prosecution is going to make is that it was donald trump and he was he set it in motion he was the beneficiary and all these sleeves fact, all these sleazy people were just doing what trump will also is the argument that all these sleazy people are living in the petri dish that donald trump has built. >> well, that's i think the real risk and i'm curious what the lawyers on this panel thing, but i think that is the real risk for the defense with what the jury here. it says the jury hear that here's gradations of this or there's the jury hold donald trump accountable for everything they're going to hear about michael cohen, about david pecker, about keith davidson that this was what was taking place. michael cohen work for donald trump for a really long time, and it's probably going

to be a big stretch for the defense to ask the jury to believe that michael cohen was off doing his own thing and all the time, especially given that relationship, i hundred percent agree. i mean, the question comes up. i mean, how do you substantiate whether donald trump was fully aware of all the contours of it, not just that the payment was being made, but that it was being made for the purposes of the election, et cetera, et cetera but one of the things that i think some of these witnesses have a stat has established is that trump uses emissaries, intermediaries to execute the things that he does and from a common sense perspective, if you're on the jury, i don't think that's hard to understand that a person like donald trump would use a michael cohen to do as dirty work. i mean, it's just it's just not that hard to bridge that gap from just a common sense perspective, we go to take a quick break next, john berman, who's been going through today's trial transcript with a closer look at the picture that jurors are getting of michael cohen. also

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break about how the defense seen cross-examining former stormy daniels and karen mcdougal, attorney keith davidson tried to leave jurors with the impression that he was in fact trying to shake down their client also to cast doubt on her credibility of expected upcoming witnesses. >> michael cohen six years ago, seen instead of side and/or talk to davidson about his dealings with cohen, he had this to say, but the financial arrangement at the heart of this trial did michael cohen ever indicate to you that he was paying this $130,000 for stormy daniels? >> out of his own personal finances? >> yes. >> and back then, did he say to you, look, i'm having to take a loan out of my house to get this done is that a yes? no now, there's never any conversation about them joining us now with more of keith davidson's final hours on the stand, john berman. so the prosecution asked davidson about that exchange in that interview? yeah, very specifically. and once again, told the jury the same thing. basically, he told sarah sinnner, steinglass, the prosecutor asked my next

question is, did you directing your attention, i guess too early april of 2018, did you go on cnn and say that michael cohen used his own funds to pay stormy daniel's. davidson says, i believe so. the prosecutor s and why did you say that? davidson says? because i understood that he did prosecutor based on the same statement that he made at the time of the transaction question, mark davidson it says an even later on that december 9th conversation that i had with him at the department store where he said he had not been reimbursed. just so you know, in that conversation, davidson said, quote, that f-in guy is not even paying be the $130,000 back. so you can see here he wants again is saying it was specifically from cohen in one other bit. i want to read you that just came out now, they just released the second part of the transcript from the de in this gets to what you were both saying, jeffrey, especially about the theory of their offense that in a way trump was being extorted to pay this money. this is an exchange about leverage, ml beauvais the defense attorney in this case, asks davidson that was ms daniels goal, was it not to create leverage over

president trump? now, keith davidson initially says no. then later a meal beauvais says, do you recall saying that mr. cohen i won't be the lisbeth least bit surprised if he comes out and says, as you know what stormy daniel's she wanted this money more than you could ever imagine? i remember hearing her on the phone saying, you, ethene keith davidson. you better settle this god story because if he loses this election and he is going to lose, if he loses this election, we lose all f-ing leverage. this case is worth zero. >> do you recall saying that to mr. cohen this time davidson says, i do okay. so this is the sleeves factor and it is through the roof. in this case. and part of it is atmospheric. they want to just turn off the jury. the defense wants the jury to just think, who knows, this is a bunch of people who lie and threaten each other and paige other off. but it also goes to an important prong of the defense if the defense believes this is a shakedown, i'm not talking about the legal elements of extortion just in the normal use of that phrase, a shakedown. it's over. there's no crime here. the

alleged crime is they're trying to do something to get a benefit in that campaign. and they're intentionally trying to get around campaign finance laws that none of that works. if this is a shakedown, and i was surprised today hey by the extent to which the prosecution allowed and the judge allowed this specter of extortion to be injected into the case. were you investigated mr. davidson for extortion? yes, i was not charged, but investigated. and boy, every time the defense just says that word, extortion over and over, it's ringing a bell i believe what the jury and i think it's gonna be a problem. >> do you remember across to your point, you remember todd blanche opened on it and is opening statement, any called i believe he either called her stormy and extortionist are referred to extortion? objection sustained. strike that from the record. so in his opening, when todd blanche said the evidence is going to show stormy daniels was extorting you. the judge wouldn't let him use that word, but it turns out that's the direction added.

>> let me ask you, but i can just read one little bit of that. in this case, the defense attorney says, in 2016, you were pretty well-versed in getting right up to the line without committing extortion. right. >> and then davidson says, i don't understand your question. >> just getting the word in but i mean, jeff, if even if it is extortion or was an attempted extortion if why would that nullify it as if trump decides to pay it off to avoid that to meet their demands couldn't that still be about the election? well, i think if he is the victim of a crime, you would not. i don't think the jury would find who what is the difference between torsion and with that, i think is the key issue here is that anytime you pay someone not to say x, which is not illegal, i mean, you pay someone or you have a noncompete agreement, you are paying someone. so they will not do something and you can

argue that that was extortion, but this i mean, i can see why the government would respond and say, look, this is an extortion, this is donald trump paying to make sure a bad story doesn't come i'm out period. >> that's davidson was so parsing his words today with the prosecution when they were wrapping up with him before the cross-examination, he wouldn't even call it hush money. he he he wouldn't even go that far the way he was describing this agreement with stormy daniel's, what i was struck by was how also they got into just how far this stretched stretched when donald trump was in the white house it was january 2018, donald trump was delivering the state of the union all of this stuff was percolating out there. the wall street journal was reporting and following up on it and other outlets and i remembered that was the state of the union where it belongs to trump drove separately from donald trump because she was irritated by what was becoming public, what we were learning about meanwhile, they were furiously racing in around keith davidson and michael cohen to stop her from speaking with either that excerpt from the testimony that berman just read stormy daniel's knows

this is all about the election. she says, when this election is over, i don't have any leverage anymore that that suggests to me everybody involved in this transaction knows that the money is being paid to keep this information away from the voters are going to be been talking about how it's not about whether the money was paid or not. it was about how it was done and the way it was it was kept from the public, so i guess i'm wondering. i mean if donald trump was the victim of extortion, maybe, but either way, he still concocted a scheme to pay the money in a way that was allegedly illegal. and i think that's a helpful reminder just again, because people sometimes may lose track of what exactly the crime is. >> the payoff to stormy daniel's is a two-part transaction. first michael cohen took this $130,000 down off his mortgage, paid himself over to stormy daniels through keith davidson. >> then in the weeks and months after that, he was reimbursed for multiples of that 400 something thousand dollars

through donald trump and the trump org possession through a series of checks and the allegation here is that reimbursement using this series of checks was a fraud. >> they tried to make it look like donald trump is paying legal fees, retainers to michael cohen to cover up the fact that what was really happening is they were reimbursing them for the one-thirty that he paid to stormy daniels to keep her quiet in connection with the campaign, and i agree by the evidence that this is related to the campaign is overwhelming. i don't see how any realistic jareh could think there was not some substantial campaign relationship, but it's really quickly just he didn't make money off of this. the reason it was higher than what he paid is because of the tax that he was going to take it you got 60 granted. get my 16th, but $60,000 was for actually doing this. that's what he says. he was paid for. >> there was a leak. yeah. she's saying that was part of his legal fees. but to your point, i think if the fence and jeffries point if the defense is successful with that line, like it, we're going to lose all leverage, leverage of what, leverage of what leverage to

extort them leveraged to get the money? hey, from them. we're going to lose all leverage. in other words, why? if he's not running for president in the united states, then he's got no reason to buy out all i'm sorry. >> min, we're about to make this point you can say it's leveraged for extortion, but it can also be leveraged because she wants to be paid for her store that doesn't have if you don't, hate is not running for president of the united states if you don't give me money, i'm going to tell the world that you're sleazebags. who sleeps here? here's, here's another scenario that's extortion. if you are, if you're if you're a victim of a if you're a victim of sexual harassment and you've sued someone, and there's limited to the amount of time that you have to do that, right? that's a lawsuit. okay. sure. but isn't the idea that this came up recently you come up to the edge of that, of that cry, of that statute of limitations. let's call it and then you say you want to get some civil your

here's your final question not if it's not if there's a lawsuit, but i can tell you if there's not a lawsuit, michael avenatti is doing jail time for something very similar because there was no loss when he went in and said, if you don't give me i'll defer let me speak about extortion for a second. >> i charged a watch extortion cases i did the easy kind, the outbreak your knees kind understand that just to be clear. yes. yes right. >> then there's this gray area and arthur is right where what if someone saying i'm going to come out with information that's damaging to you. sometimes it gets prosecuted. michael avenatti isn't jail because he extorted nike. he said, i have this information she and that's gonna be damaging to your company. hence, you have to pay me bill cosby before he got in trouble before that all came out, there was a prosecution of a woman who extorted bill cosby where that line is, i'll tell you that legal answer, wrongful. >> what wrongful means is in the eye of the beholder, it's in the eye of the prosecutor. it's in the eye of the jury. it's a gray area. it as a non-lawyer, i can say one of the reasons perhaps that they've had david pecker in everyone explaining the whole

catching kill scheme one man's catch and kill, another man's extortion. you have meetings that donald trump was part of where they're discussing how to buy these stories are how to keep them from being published. that indicates a certain intact functionality that may not be it doesn't matter. elie, do you think if stormy daniel's was telling the truth? >> does it goes to the wrongfulness because it is different in the law's eyes and the jury's eyes. imagined she fabricated this. and i said wrongful is the key question here. it's way more wrongful than if it actually happened. >> that's also why the prosecution made the point with key davidson, donald trump does not part with his money easily and anyone around donald trump knows that he's not just paying someone six figures to keep them quiet. rubber. they did quiet one guy who had false allegations, the doorman, $30,000 trump. that was the newest. am i right? am i right coming up, we're going to have more new transcripts this time from the gag order hearing and why the defense argued as the former president was not attacking the jury when he said the jury was quote, 95% democrat uterus gladstone, new,

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day, hurry. there'll be gone in a flash designer sales at up to 70% or so of guilt.com today more new transcripts this time detailing an important moment in the gag order hearing about one of the four more recent alleged violations. >> this was an interview the form president gave monday last week when he said that the jury was quote, 95% democrats, judge merchan said he spoke about the jury, right? then the defense attorney todd blanche responds, pardon me. and judge merchan says and he said that the jury was 95% democrats and that the jury had been rushed through. and the implication being that this is not a fair jury. that's the employer occasion that was given to anybody that heard that comment. this is not a fair jury moments later, blanche responded. again, he's talking about again in a passing phrase about the overall proceedings being unfair and political. the jury joining our panel now former federal judge, nancy gertner what do you make, judge gertner, just in general? how amazon is handling the gag order drama so far, i think he's doing a great job. i

mean, he is not being baited. he's sort of inner hewing to the language of his order, which has been affirmed measuring what trump did by that. and really resisting being baited. the gag order during the course of a trial in one sense, is even more important than a gag order before, because you have a juror juror sitting there knowing that they are the decision-makers. so the kinds of threats about witnesses and about the jurors themselves matter more than if it's just diffusely going out into the public eye. i think he's doing a great job regarding michael cohen is it legally relevant that michael cohen had been at least until recently going after trump online. i mean, should the judge amend the gag order? should trump can hit back at michael cohen. michael cohen is sort of a public figure, is a podcast or i think the judge is not supposed to be concerned about the given take in the public arena. he's trying to hurt me medically, seal his courtroom. and, michael, there's no sort of invited response. michael cohen

can say whatever he wants, although i suspect the prosecutors are probably calling up his lawyer now and saying, would you please shut up like now but i that shouldn't matter. the judge's only concerned about the people in front of him over whom he has authored already. and to make sure that they're not responding. trump will have an opportunity to trash everyone as you surely will when this trial is over. so i wouldn't worry about his first amendment rights. >> i think marchand was somewhat sympathetic to the michael cohen issue because michael cohen has been beating the hell out of trump in there is a sense of fairness about the response, but that line about the jury, that's the thing that's worse than anything else trump has said, because that means he has been looking into the jurors backgrounds. that means he has reached conclusions about them and hur honore can your honor, can correct me, but i think judges are especially concerned about jurors much more even

than witnesses, especially public figures like already seen. >> a juror who was in the jury pool say, you know, i don't wanna i don't want to deal with this anymore, so i mean, he could be concerned about that this is not a jury that has been sequestered, right? >> we don't really do that anymore. and so these are threats that could affect the very decision-makers in this case, as opposed to the public in general, which are more concerned about in gag orders before the trial. >> threats, there's a big difference between a threat and saying and jeffrey, i don't think you've got to do a lot of research to know that they're majority democrat what do you got 30% of the vote democratic had 87% of the vote. i mean, my 17-year-old can kind of figure out majority of democrats and all he said was it was rushed through, which maybe was a little bit in the end. he said, i can't get a fair trial with this jury. that's not a threat. he will take an opportunity to say it wasn't a fair trial. >> he doesn't do it during the course i'm getting i'm

becoming a judge in a minute during the course of my hearing. just saying this is my cottage juries that third row, you can't talk about the jury at all. i wouldn't talk i could ask the judge while we while we have you would there come a point? could there come a point where if you were reassigned to handle the rest of this case and donald trump kept doing this. would you actually lock him up under contempt that's hard i mean, i think you may reach a point where you'd have to do that just to be able to preserve the the legitimacy of the proceedings, but men that would be write down the line. >> i think that merchan did the right thing by threatening it. here's where we're going to start. we're going to start with money and every time you're going to be have to pay money. and i'm going to consider and detaining you in the bowels of this courthouse, which can't be very nice and then after that, we'll go somewhere else. but i think any judge would hesitate. >> why would you be hesitant? because you don't want to well, one is a disruption that it will cause. there's no

question about it, and the government didn't even seek his detention today. and i think it's one disruption to they'll be appeals up and down the line, judge. and two renal martyr him. >> can i ask you about something? >> one of trump's attorneys, susan niclas, certainly knows the new york court system very well. did today. >> she had this issue, the stack of articles, a lot of comments from legal commentators who were on fox news. >> and she basically wanted the judge she said to look through them and make sure that trump could post there without violating the gag order. and the judge said i'm not, going to, be in the position of looking at posts in advance and determining that one. how unusual is that, too? i mean, are they do think that was effort in good faith or that whether the lawyers effort was in good faith? no. does she actually want the judge to look through random i can't imagine that you wouldn't like can't imagine he would indulge that. i mean, i think that that was the right that's sort of a classic prior restraint. here are the things that you fear, the articles you may not post. now, the other gag order is already a prior restraint. here are the areas you can't cover,

but he doesn't want to get into the nuances of who's saying what he doesn't want to give trump a script. he can say, don't do x, y, and z. and what trump is doing? it's not even remotely subtle, right? he's attacking witnesses and jurors. it's not even subtle notions. and did that a good faith? >> i know season niclas are a long time, she's a task lawyer. i am positive she did that in good faith and she probably said, judge, he wants to retweet this particular article. doesn't want to violated. it's written by ali, who is on his side and he wants to retweet it. can he do that, but but but that's not a judge's job to review things in order. of course, it's his job it's like what am i in the twilight joining his order. he could change valuate if someone violates it, but he isn't not like they're getting a lawyer totally. >> do i have done it? i did it yesterday yesterday, judge. when my in federal court that you're not allowed to speak to

any of your codefendants or any of the employees who worked for the corporation? well, now he's pled guilty and for his sentencing memo, he wants letters from his former employees say what a great guy he was. my judge do if we violate your order, which you said he can't talk to the employee can we speak to them that said you adjust your order? if trump had said, can i talk about x and the judge could say yes, that fits within that. >> my order doesn't it? can i talk about why that would be different, but to look at an article and say, well, i think that it would violate the order. not that doesn't that's way out of line. that's not his role. he can say permissions here are the lines that i'm going to draw. and any rational human being would know whether or not they have violated. >> let me ask you about the pace of the trial so far, judge. the judge merchan said earlier, there's that appears to be running ahead of schedule do you concur with that? is that well, you said six to eight weeks the jury selection did take was was quicker than anyone anticipated, which has actually made ultimately be an

issue in the case. >> but it sounds like from his own model of when, how long this was going to be and it is moving more, it is moving more quickly, which goes back to the question about trump's speech his day will come it's not that he will be forever barred from talking about this case. he's only going to be barred while jurors are sitting there. >> but if i could just add one point about the gag order for all of trump's complaints. he's been abiding by it. he gets up and he says this gap thank order. is outrageous. the judge's unfair, all of which he's permitted to say. but ever since the contempt finding, he has not talked about jurors, he has not talked about witnesses. so i think actually in the system is working every day is not and trump is not prohibited from talking about this trial. he is prohibited about certain from certain categories and he's he's actually following those rules. i can do concern stuff that predated the gag order. >> well, the pre-dated the

finding of the violation. right. to tell the judge's point in this case. there's been sorted elements of this case. trump's conduct outside the courtroom, i think has been a boring, but the trial itself is running smooth and efficient. i mean, everyone's behaving themselves. >> the lawyers generally are doing a good job. >> judge merchan, i think is doing a nice job of keeping this thing on track. and i think that's important because everyone's watching this trial and it really needs to be fair and efficient and not a circus. and i think to all the parties credit, that's where we're at so far, not making any promises, but as of today that that's my raises a different question, which is, boy, do i wish there were cameras in this courtroom? i was a federal judge and we did not have cameras. i think that was so totally wrong. it would be wonderful to be able to see a dignified proceeding in the midst of immediate circuits that would thank you, everyone more on the trial coming up, becoming next after this break, the latest on the protests and some college campuses, the scenes from ucla last night and this morning, smoke bombs and flashbangs used to break up the encampment there a live report from that campus.

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deodorant. it's like body odor never even happens. and you're going to be exceptionally stink free and smell as good as humanly possible anticipation is building for who we may hear from him tomorrow was hearing and whether it'll be of any of the high-profile witnesses to come, including possibly former white house counselor hope hicks, once considered one of the foreign presence closest confidantes and most trusted aides back here with the team in new york when who's on the sand tomorrow, who starts off tomorrow? do we know they haven't said for sure they don't announce this obviously publicly, but but what they've been doing is folding in the super interesting juicy witnesses with those who bring the records. >> i think it could be more of the records people potentially, but i do think after that, there is an open question of who fits next in this narrative. hope hicks has been widely speculated about choice. we don't know that it is going to be her, but in that audio tape that they played in the courtroom today, it it does. i believe you can hear her voice in the background. she was obviously around for those key

conversations with michael cohen, so she could be a natural fit potential was or how or hope hicks and kellyanne conway seen in the trump world today. >> so two very different figures on hope i started with their boat since i didn't the white house, she had one focus. she's not ideological. she's not particularly partisan. her role in the white house was to protect donald trump at all costs. she sees herself as a trump loyalist first and foremost, i'm a little surprised that there has been some kind of media scuttle, but that perhaps she's really going to turn on him and this is going to be a big moment where she reveals what he did wrong. i think she's going to tell the truth as instructed by her attorneys, but i think she will stay very well within the lines of anything she will she won't want to say anything that's incriminating to the former president and kellyanne conway. i mean, she's still clings to the inner circle. she's from a certain perspective advising the campaign right now now, i don't know that either are a slam dunk for the prosecution in any sense. >> yeah. i mean, in many ways, think about why you'd want remember, they cannot play the access hollywood tape. they are not allowed to its two prejudicial according to the

judge, they can reference the fallout from the access hollywood tape for framing purposes as the prosecution you want to make the connection that the reason why he was motivated to try to falsify a business record or even pay this person differently than he had said karen mcdougal was because they were concerned about the impact to the campaign from the fallout of the access hollywood tape. so if you've got emails, if you've got discussions, if you've got communicated patients with hope hicks as the connecting dot between the campaign and the fallout of access hollywood to where we are now. that's when they're most useful. and she need not frankly, even be somebody to turn on trump or to me, or to turn against him. she asked to be somebody to say it will look, it was contemplated the fallout was major. we thought there was a fans that if there was one more straw that fell on, perhaps the evangelical vote are back, or the women voters back, or just the electoral voters in general that could have been the end of the campaign. that's the concern you have to convey. >> i think one of the most

interesting questions about the prosecution is this point is do this they call karen mcdougal and even do they call stormy daniels. >> that's because that's a great point. >> do you think they need to as a technical legal matter, i don't i don't think so. i mean, the checks have been introduced. the purpose behind the checks have been introduced and so they don't have to prove that the sex took place. that's not part of the case. >> and they may think that the prosecutors may think this is too much of a spectacle, too much of a sideshow and so i don't know. >> i mean, i think stormy daniel's is likely because it is her transaction that is really in the heart of this case. but karen mcdougal, it's it's essentially background information. the prosecution has has already put forward all about the transaction. i don't know if they need her. so before i get to that point, when you talk about tomorrow, it's all about strategy, right? and when your defense attorney you're exhausted, you

you're literally exhausted and if you put on the prosecution puts on a key witness tomorrow on friday the fence has saturday, sunday to see okay. this is the direct they're going to have daily copy and then could really prepare very well for the cross-examination on monday. so when i was a prosecutor, i tried to put on like, nonsensical went no big deal witnesses. >> but i think on a friday on a friday, so that i don't give the advantage initiatives attorney to have that weekend and prep what jeffrey is saying though, is, i've been thinking about that. >> do they really need stormy daniels? but if you give the defense the opportunity to go up there and say, i am as defense attorney, i am telling you my client is always said he didn't have sex with stormy daniels this was a shakedown. these were absolutely false allegations, and this is just paid this money just to even if it was for the presidential election, it changes. now he

really is a victim of extortion. so i think they're going to have to bring her in and she's going to say, yes, we had sex where when as a defense attorney, you wouldn't and you were representing trump, you would not want stormy daniels and karen mcdougal to testify? correct. but you know what, you don't have to remember. >> one of the objections that came during the opening, which we all know, opening statement injections are pretty rare. you want to kinda have everyone have their flow. one thought comment that instantly got sustained by the judge was was alluding that stormy was an extortionist. right. so that's something that the judge is going to have on a very tight leash. number one. >> number two, it really doesn't matter if they actually were engaged in a sexual affair anything any more than it matters whether at that time and his gosh, with billy bush, he really did grab him by the pi all that matters is the fallout and the idea of whether it would impact how he was perceived enough to motivate him to make a payment and falsified may ask you just in terms of the impressions to the jury if they hear that donald

trump has denied even knowing keratin going to go or denied. >> and you already have testimony from david pecker saying he would ask about karen mcdougal repeatedly calling her our girl and karen saying she's a nice girl does it help to actually have them on the stand to tell their sayyed story and the jury then if they believe those two, then they are less likely to believe donald trump. >> well, yeah, he's lying about that. i mean, yes. >> but it also as a strategic reason, even though i know conceptually, i don't need to have this to check off the boxes to maybe movement make my elements. >> i've got a jury who is leaning into the most. i want them in the palm of my hand and to be leaning in to know on these moments what you're hearing is so important. number one, number two, it's going to look bad for the prosecution. you mean there's all this talk about michael comments or manuals. i don't call them a juror is going to think themselves will hold on. why why are we not hearing from them? and you have to play to that same level of risk for the prosecution if they don't defense attorney my summation, we're all ways to be just

underscore just the differences between karen mcdougal and stormy daniels. and i think come into play here. karen mcdougal's relationship with trump is much more of a relationship, right? stormy daniel's, there's a debate about whether we do is since she was in love with you? yeah. exactly. so i think that that i'd also is going to come into play too, in terms of trump's credibility and denying these affairs. thanks, everyone. the news continues right here on cnn row sparks engineered for the spontaneous, a dual action formula with the active ingredients of viagra and sialic faster acting and long-lasting grabbed the moment get started at row.com slash sparks. when your home needs work, where do you go angie. >> angie? that's where angie gay man with angie, find top rated certified pros in your area plus compare quotes and pricing to help you get all your jobs done well, find top rated certified pros in your area at an and g bring into savings this moving season with pods, save up to 25%.

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preferred better science, better results. i'm rafael romo, the georgia state capitol in atlanta. >> this is cnn 9:00 p.m. here in new york day ten and the trump hush money trial and ending with a false claim from the defendant that he's not being allowed to i'm testified the day began with prosecutors seeking additional contempt judgment against him, but things really heated up during the testimony. stormy daniels and karen mcdougal's former attorney, keith davidson, the prosecution played the phone conversation that michael cohen secretly recorded and cnn exclusively obtained featuring donald trump taking an active role in the karen